Add draft post for reflexive non-binary pronouns
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# Site settings
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# Site settings
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title: Ian Adam Naval
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title: Ian Adam Naval
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subtitle: Software engineer and sysadmin
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subtitle: Software engineer and sysadmin
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description: >
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Software engineer and system administrator. Really big fan of potatoes.
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date_format: "%Y-%m-%d"
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## Profile
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pronouns:
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pronouns:
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display: "they/them"
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display: "they/them"
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url: "https://pronoun.is/they/.../themself"
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url: "https://pronoun.is/they/.../themself"
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description: >
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Software engineer and system administrator. Really big fan of potatoes.
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## Nav
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## Nav
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baseurl: ""
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baseurl: ""
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149
ianonavy/_drafts/2021-09-24-reflexive-non-binary-pronouns.md
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---
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layout: post
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title: Reflexive non-binary pronouns
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date: 2021-09-24
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category: language
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---
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Pronouns! Aren't they fun? Turns out they are not as straightforward
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as I thought. Today, I took a quick poll of people in the `#nonbinary` channel
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from the [LGBTQ in Tech Slack](https://lgbtq.technology){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"} to find out what is more popular: "themself" or "themselves"? The results surprised
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me.
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<!-- more -->
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## The data
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I asked in the channel:
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> Quick poll for people who use they/them pronouns. For reflexive pronoun do you use:
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> <br> 1️⃣ themselves
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> <br> 2️⃣ themself
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> {:class="normal-quote"}
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Of the 23 that participated, 20 selected "2️⃣ themself," and only 2 picked
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"️1️⃣ themselves." The last person suggested "theirself," which at the time of
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writing was not part of [Pronoun Island](https://pronoun.is){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"} (maybe an opportunity for someone to [contribute](https://github.com/witch-house/pronoun.is/issues){:target="\_blank"}?)
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I was expecting more people to prefer "themselves" because I more commonly
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hear "they are" instead of "they is," and I thought "themselves" would be more
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consistent. Hmmm! 🧐
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(By the way, this sample is not representative. This was a very unscientific study.)
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## Themself or themselves?
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Lots of [other people](https://www.thesaurus.com/e/grammar/they-is-a-singular-pronoun){:target="\_blank"} have written about this before, even the [Canadian Department of Justice](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/legis-redact/legistics/p1p30.html){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"}.
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I have had trouble checking many of the non-academic resources I've found for consistency.
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For example, the Canadian DoJ site [updated 2020-06-01, accessed 2021-09-24] says
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"The current _Oxford English Dictionary_ (OED) Online does not have an entry for
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themself;" which is **not true**!
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### someone is wrong on the internet
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I checked the OED myself, and I found
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[this usage category](https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/334443#eid1291513750){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"} for what I will call "gender unspecified":
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> **themself**, _pron_.
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> <br>2. In anaphoric reference to a **singular** pronoun or noun.
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> <br>b. With a generic or indefinite antecedent referring to an individual (e.g. a person, someone, the patient), used esp. so as to make a general reference to such an **individual without specifying gender.**
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> {:class="normal-quote"}
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The examples date from 1463 to 2009. The contemporary example is a publication
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noting Facebook's [historical usage of gender neutral "themself"](https://theweek.com/articles/451426/evolution-facebooks-pronoun-problem){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"} prior to
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introducing a gender-based pronoun sytem. (Now, Facebook correctly asks pronouns
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separately from gender.)
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Okay, so that works for "gender unspecified," but what about "genderqueer" or
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gender non-conforming? Well, there is [another usage category](https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/334443#eid1291513780){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"} for that:
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> 2c. Used to refer to a person whose sense of personal **identity does not correspond to conventional sex and gender distinctions**, and who has typically asked to be referred to by the pronouns they, them, etc.
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> {:class="normal-quote"}
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So the difference here is instead of "we don't know their gender," the case is
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"this person goes by _they_." The examples cited on this category are much more
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contemporary than the ones for "gender unspecified," dating back only to 2011.
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To me, this indicates that there has long been a grammatical precedent for
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_themself_ meaning "gender unspecified," but people explicitly identifying as
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gender non-conforming and communicating _in English_ about themselves with
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they-based pronouns is _relatively_ new.
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### words are hard
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Now if we take a look at the [entry for _themselves_](https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200324?#eid1292523640){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"}
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in the OED, its usage categories have a little more varied history. The singular
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reflexive, usage ("they love themselves") dates back to 1529 in the
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["gender unspecified" sense](https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200324?#eid1291693070){:class="external-link" :target="\_blank"}. However, the ["genderqueer" sense](https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200324?#eid1291693480){:class="external-link" :target="\_blank"}
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only dates back to 2009.
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There is [another meaning](https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200324?#eid1292523640)
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for _themselves_ called _emphatic_, as in "the person themselves."
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For "gender unspecified" this goes back to 1782, but again for
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"genderqueer" it's very recent: 2019.
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> **themselves**, _pron_.
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> <br> 1. Emphatic uses.
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> <br> b. Used in apposition to a **singular** noun or pronoun (e.g. the person themselves), typically to **avoid specifying** the gender of the individual being referred to; Later also: used in apposition to a proper noun or pronoun referring to a person whose sense of personal **identity does not correspond to conventional sex and gender distinctions**.
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> {:class="normal-quote"}
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### so what's it gonna be?
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Ultimately, I think _themself_ wins here. The word is:
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- More natural in the "gender unspecified" sense
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- More popular in the contemporary "genderqueer" sense
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- More easily distinguished from the plural "themselves" in all senses of the word
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_Themselves_ is slightly older on the Internet for queer people than _themself_,
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but we're literally comparing a 2011 [university newsletter](https://dailybruin.com/about){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"}
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article with a 2009 Twitter post, so I don't give that much weight.
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## Themself or theirself?
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I like the grammatical consistency of "theirself," but I hadn't heard of it
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before asking my poll. Unfortunately, the
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[_Oxford Engish Dictonary_ entry for "theirself"](https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/362903){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"}
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as of 2021 is behind a paywall. If you could access the page—maybe [using your public library card](https://public.oed.com/help/){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"}—you would see that the singular, reflexive, "gender unspecified" usage goes back to 1819.
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However, there is curiously **no usage category for "theirself" in the
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"genderqueer" sense.** Quick, someone make a Tumblr post!
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So I decided to look at the [Google Books Ngram Viewer](https://books.google.com/ngrams/info){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"}
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to see how usage of these words in their corpus of books has changed with time.
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See for yourself:
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[source](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=themself%2Ctheirself&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cthemself%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ctheirself%3B%2Cc0){: class="external-link" target="\_blank"}
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{: class="figure-caption"}
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_Themself_ seems to be significantly more popular today than _theirself_.
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_Theirself_ seems to have peaked in 2002, although it's starting to rise again
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as of 2018.
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## tl;dr
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I took the liberty of summarizing all the findings above into a table:
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| Reflexive pronoun | "gender unspecified" | "genderqueer" | Popular queer usage |
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| ----------------- | -------------------- | ------------- | ------------------- |
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| themself | 1463 | 2011 | a lot |
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| themselves | 1529 | 2009 | some |
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| theirself | 1819 | -- | a little |
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Oldest OED-cited usages and popular queer usage for singular, reflexive usage
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{:class="figure-caption"}
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After all this "research" and following the discussion in the Slack channel
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where I made my poll, I came to the following conclusions:
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- Language is hard; it's okay to be wrong.
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- "Themself" is more common than "theirself."
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- If you're queer, do what sounds best for you.
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- If you're referring to someone else, ask them.
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- _Maybe_ default to "themself" if you're not sure.
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- As always with this sort of thing, [let people choose](https://github.com/witch-house/pronoun.is/issues/46){:class="external-link" target="\_blank"}.
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Soo... what will I try out for myself? Honestly, I'll probably go back and forth.
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<p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/adweek-flex-pride-month-binary-gj16b2C0szCUZwuVkE" target="_blank" class="external-link">via GIPHY</a></p>
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---
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layout: post
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title: Test Post
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date: 2015-05-27 21:00:00
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category: test
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---
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Tater cara sieglinde canela russet russet norkotah bannock russet. Selma goldrush jersey royal, spunta estima stobrawa marcy kerr's pink. Blue congo langlade silverton russet, linda vitelotte russet norkotah kestrel langlade yellow finn camota. Superior home guard bildtstar maris piper selma adirondack red.<!-- more --> Potato bamberg bannock russet yukon gold estima primura. Silverton russet chelina, annabelle cielo silverton russet kennebec king edward lady balfour fingerling.
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Stobrawa jersey royal langlade cabritas linda apline bamberg. Linda golden wonder, linda maris piper pike keuka gold bintje cielo. Cabritas french fries anya british queens german butterball innovator. Innovator norgold russet bannock russet chelina megachip tater. Kestrel ranger russet red pontiac bannock russet arran victory british queens. Spunta kennebec british queens belle de fontenay primura fianna. Avalanche jersey royal adirondack blue pink eye kipfler german butterball.
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Sirco ranger russet flava, sirco kestrel bonnotte innovator bintje red lasoda. Sirco pike fianna marfona, ratte fianna chelina bannock russet goldrush adirondack blue keuka gold. Annabelle adirondack blue kestrel cielo langlade. Up to date belle de fontenay shepody amandine german butterball arran victory, camota almond monalisa silverton russet potato chelina. British queens home guard linda sirco pike record, snowden yukon gold silverton russet anya yellow finn primura.
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Adirondack red kerr's pink amandine selma tater stobrawa. Bintje camota pink fir apple avalanche linda blazer russet. Russet norkotah snowden selma sieglinde golden wonder primura. Monalisa pike jersey royal red norland lady balfour blue congo. Lady balfour agata spunta red lasoda vitelotte red pontiac. Pink eye adirondack red belle de fontenay bonnotte adirondack blue golden wonder avalanche.
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Fingerling belle de fontenay irish cobbler spud, snowden fianna rooster goldrush agata. Fianna tater bannock russet british queens golden wonder. Pike bintje almond golden wonder, maris piper red pontiac sirco blazer russet red lasoda megachip rooster. Sirco up to date blue congo marfona, golden wonder langlade marfona goldrush almond. Cabritas innovator pink eye canela russet carola. German butterball, record lady balfour linda red norland alturas.
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9
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<!-- https://carlosbecker.com/posts/jekyll-reading-time-without-plugins/ -->
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<span class="reading-time" title="Estimated read time">
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{% assign words = include.words | number_of_words %}
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{% if words < 360 %}
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1 min
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{% else %}
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{{ words | divided_by:180 }} mins
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{% endif %}
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</span>
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@ -5,7 +5,7 @@ layout: default
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<header class="post-header">
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<header class="post-header">
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<h1 class="post-title">{{ page.title }}</h1>
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<h1 class="post-title">{{ page.title }}</h1>
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<p class="post-meta">{{ page.date | date: "%b %-d, %Y" }}{% if page.author %} • {{ page.author }}{% endif %}{% if page.meta %} • {{ page.meta }}{% endif %}</p>
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<p class="post-meta">Published {{ page.date | date: site.date_format }} • {% include read_time.html words=content %}{% if page.author %} • {{ page.author }}{% endif %}{% if page.updated %} • Updated {{ page.updated | date: site.date_format }}{% endif %}{% if page.meta %} • {{ page.meta }}{% endif %}</p>
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</header>
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</header>
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<article class="post-content">
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<article class="post-content">
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}
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}
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}
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}
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.external-link::after {
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content: " »";
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}
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@include media-query($on-palm) {
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@include media-query($on-palm) {
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position: absolute;
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position: absolute;
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top: 9px;
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top: 9px;
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/**
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/**
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* Page content
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* Page content
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*/
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*/
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table {
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max-width: 90%;
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margin-bottom: 20px;
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border: 1px solid #dedede;
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border-spacing: 0;
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thead,
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tbody,
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tfoot {
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tr {
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th,
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td {
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padding: 8px;
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line-height: 1.42857143;
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vertical-align: top;
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border-top: 1px solid #ddd;
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}
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}
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}
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thead {
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tr {
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th {
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vertical-align: bottom;
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border-bottom: 2px solid #ddd;
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text-transform: none;
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background-color: #777;
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color: #fff;
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text-align: left;
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}
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}
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tr:first-child {
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th {
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border-top: 0;
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}
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}
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}
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tbody > tr:nth-of-type(odd) {
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background-color: #f9f9f9;
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}
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tr {
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td {
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hyphens: auto;
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}
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}
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}
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.external-link::after {
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content: " »";
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}
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.figure-caption {
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color: gray;
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font-size: 80%;
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text-align: center;
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}
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.normal-quote {
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font-style: normal;
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letter-spacing: normal;
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}
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.page-content {
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.page-content {
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padding: $spacing-unit 0;
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padding: $spacing-unit 0;
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p {
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line-height: 28px;
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}
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}
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}
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.page-heading {
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.page-heading {
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<h2>
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<h2>
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<a class="post-link" href="{{ post.url | prepend: site.baseurl }}">{{ post.title }}</a>
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<a class="post-link" href="{{ post.url | prepend: site.baseurl }}">{{ post.title }}</a>
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</h2>
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</h2>
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<span class="post-meta">{{ post.date | date: "%b %-d, %Y" }}</span>
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<span class="post-meta">{{ post.date | date: site.date_format }} • {% include read_time.html words=post.content %}</span>
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<div class="post-content-truncate">
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<div class="post-content-truncate">
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{% if post.content contains "<!-- more -->" %}
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{% if post.content contains "<!-- more -->" %}
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{{ post.content | split:"<!-- more -->" | first }}
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{{ post.content | split:"<!-- more -->" | first }}
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